I’m very busy lately it will take a day or two to answer you.

Take care,

Nu, Amigo, and why do I feel like I need to apologies to you every time I read your comments? Ah?
And if I were to take your writing and mix them with a lot of salt and hot pepper until they lose all there original taste, serve it up all for dinner, would you seat down and eat?

In this context, my compression to Nazis was in regard to the occupation of Lebanon. I compared Nazis to soldiers who were surrounding the Sabra village when the massacre happen, and did not do anything because they were ordered to stay still. Soldiers that while hearing the Israeli government denying the bombing of villages on the radio were loading ammunition into cannons and doing exactly that. To agents of the Shin Bet which describe how they would control Villages in Lebanon through a network of snitches, how they would force people to turn in relatives, or would simply torture people. I would like you to explain me, my friend, how all of these people are different then Nazi soldiers and technocrats.
And what about all the stories that are not told by Israeli army personal? What about the soldiers, for example, who were in charge of the Kiham prison where under the supervision and with the training of Israeli military hundreds of civilians were tutored for years, sometimes with never being charged with a crime? Old people, women, and kids who their only crime was to refuse to provide information to the occupying army and their running dogs? One of the tactics of torture, according to a friend of mine who was arrested for breaking the curfew imposed on his village, was to throw people into a bathtub of boiling waters. How are these soldiers different then Nazis? These are only the tip of the iceberg of atrocities committed in Lebanon by the IDF and the SLA, and you, as a son of a holocaust survivor should be the first to make the connection between the action of these soldiers and Nazis.

There is a different between a war for liberation and the forces who are fighting for freedom, and an occupying army who is fighting to maintain relationship of exploitation and racism. The tactic of suicide bombing by Palestinians is illogical. Not only it targets civilians, but it creates unity in your society and support for the occupation. I think that the Palestinians after years and years of occupation, Israelis lack of concern, the reality that Israelis have been and are supporting reactionary and butchers leaders, and the fact that most Israelis serve in the reserve army, usually in check-points and the occupied territories, have driven Palestinians to view the whole Israeli population as one collective. That might be true, but is no excuse to kill civilians.
In any case, you always have to make the definition of who is the attacker and who is the person being attacked. Who is the rapist and who is being raped. During the occupation of Algeria by French, coffee shops and night clubs used by French settlers were bombed. Was that justified? No. was the struggle of the Algerians for independence necessary? Without a doubt.

I appreciate your father wisdom, but this debate, however, is with you, my friend (and the honor is all mine.) I would like to know what you think will happen if the IDF will be abolish.

So, Ya Zalame, are you still hungry?

I gave more then just examples to torture. I gave examples to soldiers bombing villages and soldiers surrounding Sabra while Palestinians were being murdered. And people were tutored to death in the Kiram prison.

My comparing to Nazi soldiers was in regard to people following orders blindly. I see no deference, for example, between the soldiers who surrounded Sabra during the massacre, and Nazi soldiers who guarded death camps. I see no difference between agents of the Shin-Bet or Israeli Soldiers who trained the SLA to kidnap, torture, and kill civilians to Nazi technocrats who assisted and maintained the system in tact. And what was the SLA if not a death machine?

By this I’m not trying to trivialize the holocaust. I’m trying to draw attention to the fact that the Nazi frame of mind, the obedience to the state in face of atrocities, is still with us.

its Illogical because it creates a paradox, it defeats the Palestinians objectives by uniting instead of polarizing the Israeli society.

I do not justify under any circumstances the killing of civilians.

I compared some soldiers who committed some acts (to which I gave examples too) during the occupation of Lebanon to Nazis. I did not compare the whole Zionist army, defiantly not the whole population of Israelis in Palestine to Nazis.

The Zionist ideology is indeed racist and only serves the aims of imperialist countries. Israel, like other dictators and poppet government, would not receive the billions of dollars in aid every year if Israel did not fallow slavishly their master orders from Washington. There are a lot of things that I would like to change about history; it would be a waste of time, however, for me to start thinking about that. I need to work with what is happening now. At the moment, the community of Israelis in Palestine is a fact. In order to create a better future, Israelis need to accept Palestinians as equal humans, not as some subhuman’s, not as cheep labor and not as “us” and “they” (we are here, they are over their). The state of Israel needs to stop intervening in Palestinians politics by killing secular and progressive leaders, by fighting secular movements, or by promoting with money dishonest and corrupt Palestinian leaders who are only going to serve the Israeli government objectives.

The struggle of the Palestinian and the Lebanese for self determination and to live freely is just. Some tactics employ by the Hamas and the Hisbala such as the killing of civilians, and the religious ideology of these organizations are wrong. It’s also important to remember how organizations like the Hamas and Hisbala came into existence in the first place. The Hamas was aided in its first days as movement by Israel to fight Palestinian secular movement (which Israel instead of recognizing, eliminated) and the Hisbala was founded as popular movement who opposes the occupation of Lebanon by Israel.

I’m calling for the abolishing of the state of Israel and for something better to come about. A society that can give real democracy to Israelis, to Israelis who want to practice Judaism, and to the Palestinians. This, however, can never be achieved under the rule of the Israeli government, the Zionist army, or the shin-Bet who have publicly claimed that he would fight any democratic attempt, to change the “Jewish character” of the state of Israel.

Your last statement confused me. I really can’t understand why you feel that the IDF protects Israelis. From what I can view from the short history of your country is that the IDF only fights organizations that came into existence due to the IDF own actions. In Lebanon, for example, the IDF have invaded Lebanon only so it could fight refugees who were expelled from Palestine by the IDF, and occupied Lebanon to fight the Hisbala who were resisting the Israeli occupation. In the occupied territories too, the IDF is only fighting movements who developed to oppose the Israeli occupation. So who is the IDF protecting exactly?
Furthermore, why should I need to choose between Israel and the Hamas? Why do I need to choose between a racist and apartheid country ruled by corrupt and sexist officials, and a Muslim fundamentalist’s organization? Mcworld or Jihad? It is up to people like me and you to create a better future, another alternative to these two oppressive choices.

Take care,

I disagree with your interpretation of the war of 67’ war. And even if you were right, how exactly occupying territories help?

Saddam Husain would have never come to power if it wasn’t for Americas close relation with him through weapons and money (even during the time that he gases the curds). Beside, how was the IDF exactly protecting Israelis when missiles were hitting?

The fact that we need to deal with the “Iranian lunatic” is thank to your country best ally. The USA has brought into power and supported for many years the Shah, a dictator who has killed hundred of Iranian through his secret police the Sabak. In 1979 through a popular apprising composed of different groups the Shah was driven out of office and a new Muslim theocracy seized state power. What scers me is not the Muslim fundamentalists that “we” are dealing now with, at the moment, but the fact that in other Arab countries which are control by dictators who are supported by Washington, new Islamic revolutions will take place that will bring more and more Ahmdinegan into power.

So today is always a bad day for me to answer questions, any question. I usually still recovering from the weekend drinking and I don’t know how efficient I would be.
So what was the question? Oh yeah, do I think that Israelis should have the right to practice Judaism. Sure, as far as I concerned Israelis can believe that there are little red dragons in the sky (with blue and green dots). The problem, however, becomes when these dragons become the justification to the oppression of another nation, the taking of land, and the killing of people.

Let me take a break for a second, ahhh, my head (note to my self, after the revolution it would be appropriate to invent something better than optalgin for hangovers, I have taken five and I still feel like my head is going to blowup).

So anyway, where was I? Oh yeah, superstitions. Do Israelis have the right to practice Judaism? As far as I concerned…..Oh I already wrote that.

So yeah, can Israelis be defined as a nation? Yes. Again, not at the expanse of other people. Jews from America and Israel are part of the same nation just as much as Muslim from Egypt and a Muslim form Indonesia are from the same nation. Your country have gave citizenship to thousands of Russians who some of them only had a distance Jewish relative, while denying the same right to people who have been living here for years.

What do you mean by “Jewish character of the Israel”? A state should be governed by secular laws. Not by some biblical idealist notion of morality. If people want to practice a different religion that’s fine, I just don’t see what the government has to do with that. if tomorrow a person would come and tall you that he thinks that the Jewish state should allow man who rape women to marry those women, or to pay them some money as a conseptation ( a law that was written in the “holiest book” delivered from the almighty god) you would paunch him in the face (or at least I hope you will). Why is that law more ridicules from laws who insure privilege and rights only to people from a certain religion?

Religion is just a manifestation of the conditions that exist under capitalism. For the oppressor it is the justification for these conditions, for the oppressed it’s the promise that some day in another world they might get a better life (generally speaking).

So yes, Israelis should have the right to practice their culture as long as they do not do it at the expanse of other people (did I wrote that already?).

So what was the question again?

I’m surrey about the confusing brother, but it seems that the way that Israel defines nationalism is religiously. This is problematic in a country that provides special privileges only to people from a Judaist religion. And even if that was not true, it would be problematic to define nationality by religion. I due feel that there is no difference between saying that Jews in America and Russia are from the same nation, and saying that a Muslim from Indonesia and a Muslim from Harlem are from the same nation.

I always try to do a couple of lines of cocaine before I drive drunk, it comes down the ecstasy that I took before I started drinking.

Israel does define its nationality religiously. If someone in Russia has a distance relative who is Jewish he would become an Israeli citizen. If an Israeli citizen will marry a European this European will become an Israeli citizen. On the other hand if an Israeli-Arab or an Israeli marries a Palestinian the Palestinian partner would not become a citizen. In some cases your government denies citizenship to people who were burn in Israel. I’m not even going to go into the whole fact that the Palestinian refugees are denied the same rights that Jewish immigrants get.

In France you would not become a citizen just because you are a catholic, and if a France person wants to marry you, you will become a French citizen.

The contradiction that you are talking about between a secular country and the definition of citizenship by religious criterions is indeed very problematic.

This is just one racist law practice by the state of Israel. But if any other state would grant rights to other citizens based on the color of their skin or their religion it would be racist.

The French exercise racism towards the undocumented African immigrants that they use as cheep labor. This has led to a couple of rebellions by immigrants in France.

Brother, as much as I enjoy this discussion, I’m a busy man, and we would need to separate our ways in the near future. So why don’t you reply to me, I will answer, and you can end this discussion? Kapish?

Have you seen this?
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/848620.html
What’s more interesting is not who did this, but the comments by Israelis to the article.

Take care,

And I again, I disagree. A French person can marry who ever he wants; the French government would not deny him the right to marry an African person and to live in France, since that African person might threaten the “French character” of the French nation. I think that the discrimination against Palestinians and Arabs is connected to the ethnic cleansing that the Israeli government is trying to impose inside the borders of Israel.

I don’t understand why you feel that if Israel will become a two nation state, your language and culture will disappear. Do Arabs have some kind of genetic dieses that force them to hate Israelis or to try get reed of the Israeli culture? Again, we should not have to choose between an apartheid state ruled by corrupt leaders, and an Islamic theocratic state. We should fight for a better future, something better than these two alternatives. A state that can not only provide the means for everyone to live, but can also allow two cultures, the Palestinian and the Israeli, to coexist respectfully.

If I was you, I would take notice at how your culture is actually changing do to the militarization of your society. To the violent and sexist mentality that Israelis develop as a direct consequence of the occupation of Palestine.

So my friend, we both disagree, so what is left? Or as Lenin once wrote “What is To Be Done?” (Ahandruty Roy)

Let’s end with an understanding.
Understanding by you, on the one hand, to my aspiration and dedication to those millions of people in the third world who are dieing from preventable dieses, those millions of people who are not provided with the means to survive, and are starving daily. Those millions of people who are working day and night to provide us with cheep shoes and clothing, with food and other necessities. Those millions of people whose faces we never see, and scream’s we never hear.
And an understanding by me, on the other hand, to your love to your culture. To your worry to lose this amazing language that we call Hebrew. These bountiful traditions and texts, and all the good things about the Israeli mentality, (are you selling your car?).

I can tall you that I would never want to live in a place where Israelis would not be allowed to practice their culture. I would never want to be part of that future.

I would like to thank you for the opportunity to have this debate with you, I definitely learned a lot from you, and I hope that have leaned something from me. I would like to end with a statement by Victor Frankl, who once wrote that:” It’s not the question of what is the meaning of life; the question is what does life demands of us.” (I’m elaborating)

I’m looking forward to see you here in the future.

Take care,